As we move into our second hour together, after a first that has shown Stuart Lancaster to be impressively engaging and thoughtful, we finally reach a question that makes England's interim rugby coach hesitate. Until now he has been fluid and passionate. Lancaster has spoken persuasively of the need to transform the culture around the damaged England squad and of his determination to "reconnect" his players with the grassroots of the game.
He has also underlined his belief that the foundations of England's team need to be relaid, and that a new generation of young players should be trusted. And he has offered a simple reply to the obvious point that such changes require time: "Of course they do."
Yet Lancaster knows he will probably have no more than three games in this year's Six Nations to win himself the permanent job he craves with England. His first match in charge is on Saturday, at Murrayfield, as England travel to Scotland for a fixture marked by a rivalry as ancient as it is fierce. So the next basic query makes him pause and, briefly, agonise over the right answer.
Will Lancaster show himself to be a pragmatist in this tournament, or will he remain locked into his admirable wider vision of coaching? "Um …" he eventually says, almost smiling and grimacing at the same time. In the end, as seems typical of Lancaster, he decides to tell the truth.
"I'm probably not pragmatic enough," he says, before breaking into a rasping laugh. "But it's contextual. If we were sat here, a few days before a World Cup quarter-final, I'd only be thinking one thought: 'How do we win this game?' This is different. The majority of my thoughts are underpinned by the question of: 'How can we build a team that's going to win the World Cup in 2015?' How are we going to get the foundations to achieve that and how we are going to give the right experience to the right players? And if it means we lose some games along the way then I'm prepared to take that and the …"
The word is, surely, "consequences"? Lancaster, however, decides not say it out loud. "I understand the England head coach's job is a results-based job," he continues. "The easy way for me would be to pick the most experienced side I could find against Scotland and hopefully get a win. It might give the people who judge things purely on results an opportunity to say, actually, 'He's the right man for the job.' But it's more important I get the team culture and environment right."
Lancaster's brief tenure has seen him remove two players from England's elite performance squad. On Monday he made his disappointment plain when confirming he had suspended Delon Armitage. The London Irish back was arrested after an alleged assault in a nightclub following his appearance for England Saxons on Saturday. Lancaster had already made his resolve clear when, within days of his appointment, he suspended Danny Care, the England player to whom he is closest, after he was arrested for drink-driving.
His broader remit as England coach is evident when he talks about Care. "I haven't seen a player hurt as much as the day I spoke to Danny. I know he's a fundamentally good person and I still think about it a lot. I'll support him on the way back but this applies to everyone in the squad. They will only fulfil themselves as players, and people, if they bring discipline to their lives."
Such rigour helps make Lancaster sound plausible during the following claim: "What would give me the most satisfaction is if, at the end of the Six Nations, we've got a team that trusts each other and plays hard for each other, that we have a developing game-plan. The public perception is also important – I want people to look at the team with pride and an understanding of what we're trying to achieve. Ultimately, I do believe if you focus on those elements then the score takes care of itself."
Those last six words are a familiar mantra for Lancaster. He smiles when it is pointed out how often he reaches for that saying. "I do," he says cheerfully. "You should look at my car because there are so many audiobook tapes and a lot of them have an American Football backdrop. There's a great book by Bill Walsh [the former coach of the San Francisco 49ers] which is called The Score Takes Care of Itself. I listen to it over and over again. He took the 49ers from a 2-14 losing record in year one and built new foundations. In his second season his record was still something like 2-14. But in his third year they became Super Bowl champions. Walsh was lucky, he had a good owner who gave him time. But he had a strong philosophy which shone through and his legacy still lives on. It's about building solid foundations and, from there, success arrives."
If Walsh had operated under the time constraints forced upon Lancaster he would have been out of a job within a few months. The same criteria would have seen Sir Alex Ferguson sacked from Manchester United during his difficult first year at the club, and would have ended Sir Clive Woodward's reign after just one mixed series of autumn internationals in 1997. Woodward has said that, considering their meagre records, both he and Lancaster were extremely "lucky" to be offered the chance to coach England. Yet there is a stark contrast. Woodward had at least three years to establish his credentials; Lancaster has three games.
"I'm not avoiding the point," Lancaster says amiably, "but my philosophy is so strong I'm not going to change it now. It's all about building a team brick-by-brick, about ensuring the foundations are solid and we have a base of the right culture, hard work and trust. The next layer is all about structure and your tactical game plan with the layer above that being your attacking blocks followed by another block centred on player leadership. And the final piece on top of the pyramid is the winning team."
These are just words, of course, and, without having seen much of his work at Leeds and the England Saxons, it is hard to know how skilled Lancaster might be as a coach. He talks in intricate detail about planning for the future but what happens if England lose to Scotland on Saturday? Their next match is also away – against Italy. Does he have a contingency plan to deal with the criticism that could derail him and his young team?
"We've got a contingency game plan," Lancaster says coolly. "We've got a clear philosophy on how we want to play but we've also got a Plan B if things don't go well in a game. We've got the facility to be versatile and I learned the value of that a few years ago when the Saxons didn't have a Plan B. It was a game against Ireland and, as a coach, I didn't really give them the option to get out of a hole."
Lancaster has coached too few matches at the highest level to have the experience that bolsters Andy Robinson, his counterpart with Scotland. Instead, Lancaster will have to rely on his intelligence and intuition. "If you win," he says, shrugging, "the perception is you're on the way to a Grand Slam. But if you lose then you're on your way to the wooden spoon. So you need the right process in place and to focus exactly on what the players did right or wrong. What can we change while remaining true to our philosophy? Whatever the outcome, there will be no knee-jerk reaction.
"I need the players to concentrate on Scotland – but with the understanding that it's part of a wider journey. Scotland will give us a key barometer of where we are as a group. But we'll have a more important barometer in the summer when we go to South Africa. We need to go on that tour feeling excited and with the thought that, 'Right, this is the pinnacle of our season.'"
There will be no personal pinnacle for Lancaster unless he can, almost instantly, create a winning team in the Six Nations. He laughs kindly at that cruel observation. "My passion is coaching and I've got no real ego. What energises me most is improving people. The other part is creating a team. So whether I'm working with an Under-11 side, the Saxons or England, it's the same thing. I give my all because I love coaching."
That last sentence is without dispute but there is a glaring difference between coaching junior and international rugby. At least Lancaster can lay claim to some specialist knowledge after his illuminating days in Scottish dressing-rooms. "I played a lot for Scottish Students," the 42 year-old former flanker says, "as well as one Under-19 and one Under-21 game for Scotland. While I'm English, my mother's from Dumfries. I played with people like Bryan Redpath, Gregor Townsend, Andy Nicol and Doddie Weir. We played against England once. It was very interesting to be in a Scottish dressing room that day.
"In every England-Scotland game there is huge rivalry and the Scots harness that and use it very well. My challenge is to make sure we match that passion and energy of the Scots because it's been a few years since England won at Murrayfield. Scotland also have stability and a great coach."
England have instability, an unproven coach and numerous variables whose impact will only begin to emerge on Saturday – one of these being the fact that Andy Farrell, a member of England's coaching team, and his son, Owen, will share the away dressing room at Murrayfield. Andy was a great rugby league player but he is a relative coaching novice in union; while Owen will be making his international debut at the age of 20.It's an intriguing father-son conundrum to throw in alongside all the imponderables currently surrounding England.
"They're used to dealing with it," Lancaster says of the Farrells. "It's harder for the public to get a handle on it because it is so unusual. But Andy's qualities are huge. He has credibility as a person which sets him apart, for what he's done in the past and how he handles himself now. His communication is strong and effective. He's enthusiastic, has great values and his knowledge of rugby is deep. I am also so impressed by Owen. His basic skills are very good, but the two main features that stick out for me with Owen are his temperament and presence. They're hard to define – but he has them both."
Lancaster also has some presence and there are signs that he might have the temperament to become a successful international coach. But he does not have the time he needs, unless England produce the right performances and a string of winning results almost immediately.
"First impressions count for a lot," he concedes. "I think we've made a good first impression with the players and hopefully they'll show much more excitement than uncertainty in this tournament. With international rugby it's easy to slip into a same old, same old feeling. We want to do things differently and we want to do them in the right way. And if we do that I truly believe the score will take care of itself. I'll be happy with that."
