CHEWING THE FAT
Two former Harlequins, an ex-Newcastle full-back and a retired No8 who included Richmond among his clubs gathered in central Auckland on Tuesday to talk about the World Cup. Will Carling, Zinzan Brooke, Matthew Burke and Scott Quinnell, all better known for their exploits in international rugby, are Heineken ambassadors during the tournament and spoke about a variety of subjects.
On England
Will Carling (England): I do not understand what happened with them. From a distance I thought the value system had been lost in the England team. I am not sure where it has gone but I hope the new coaching team sits down with these players and some of them grow up a bit and understand the honour of putting on that shirt.
The way a number behaved here was an insult to the shirt. It is an easy excuse to blame the media, even if they do sometimes [go] looking for things, but it is naive to give them that chance. I could not see what was wrong with guys going to a bar and having some beers. I do not have an issue with that, but some of the other stuff? It was stupid and irresponsible. You cannot defend it.
The majority of the guys did not do anything daft but all it takes is four or five of them. They let someone like Jonny Wilkinson down in what may have been his last involvement with England and they let the history of the jersey down. You have to think about that when you wear the shirt. Jumping into the harbour at the end of the World Cup is just stupid. If you are here on a tour or a holiday fine, if that is what you want to do. But at the end of a World Cup campaign that had been blighted by poor media you go and do that. What for?
They let Martin Johnson down, they let fellow players down and they let the fans down. All this goes to the very top of the RFU. People talk about players but there has been enough going on within the union itself, vacant positions and votes of no confidence etc. It starts there and that needs to be sorted out as well as what happened with the squad.
The values and culture of the RFU need to be reassessed, sorted out and changed. They have to think whether they are doing it for the best of English rugby or for their own egos and power base. If the latter, move on. If people at the top are doing it for the wrong reasons, how the hell do we expect people who are playing to do it for the right reasons. The whole thing needs to be reassessed. 57 old farts? There still needs to be a lot of change.
I do not know if Johnson will put himself up again. I think even he would be hard pushed to say that the coaching team should stay. He is a very loyal, stubborn man and if he is told the coaching team needs to change would he still hang around? He is all about winning. He was an incredible player and captain but if you sit down and assess the last three and a half years they have not been good enough.
Zinzan Brooke (New Zealand): Even without the peripheral stuff, I do not think England were good enough to get beyond the quarter-finals. They did not have enough quality. I cannot still work out how Argentina lost to England at the start of the group stage.
Scott Quinnell (Wales): I see that after Wales lost to France in the semi-final we have dropped from fourth to sixth in the world rankings. We are now below England!
On Wales
SQ: You would like to think this is an opportunity to say we will reflect on what we have done, like Clive Woodward in 1999, and New Zealand did in 2007 when they could have sacked Graham Henry but kept the continuity going, and keep the coaching team intact. We have chopped and changed over the years in Wales and I would love another four years from the management team and the playing squad to see where we are in 2015. It is an exciting time.
Sometimes there are calls for a new voice in coaching set-ups, but we have so many young players who are just starting out that the current coaches are new voices to them. The coaches will be able to talk to them and not have to change a huge amount or rethink.
Rhys Priestland was a huge miss in the semi-final. He has a kicking game and he does the right things. He is an intelligent rugby player. When he needs to take it to the line he does so and he is one of the reasons Jamie Roberts has been so good this tournament, bringing him into the game. A sign of a good 10 is when he makes the right decisions and people play around him. He has been one of the highlights of the tournament and I think he will start at outside-half for the Scarlets when he gets home.
This is the fittest Wales side I have ever seen and no one can match them in that regard in the World Cup. It has a mix of experience and youth and what they have put their bodies through in the summer must have been incredible. Wales gave themselves a wonderful opportunity, against all the odds, to get to a World Cup final. I would love us to have tested ourselves against New Zealand in the final because they are strong and they are four years down the line from a disappointing quarter-final exit; and they have Graham Henry who masterminded some of the great wins I was lucky enough to play in. They will always wonder.
WC: Wales have been bloody impressive and Sam Warburton has been outstanding. I feel very sorry for him in the sense that the memory people will have is that he got sent off in the semi-final. The mark of him as a young guy is how he has handled it. He has been banned for three weeks but he has not said anything about it; he has set the tone for Wales.
Two or three years ago I was hearing stuff about egos in the Wales camp and that things were out of control but it has changed. Their work ethic and their attitude have been impressive and a huge amount of that comes from him. They have a number of young players who are not only talented but have a great attitude as well. Wales are the fittest team in this tournament. They have progressed massively. They came here as boys and are leaving as men.
They should have beaten South Africa and there is still a mental bit for Wales to get over. They are in great shape and have young talented kids. Now they have to find that bit of steel so close games are actually won. That is the next stage for them. When they get themselves in a position to win, they have to finish it off.
Matthew Burke (Australia): The disappointing thing about Wales not being in the final is the backline they have. I thought their centres were the only ones in the semi-finals who could attack and defend against the New Zealand midfield of [Ma'a] Nonu and [Conrad] Smith. I would love to have seen a match-up between the two sets. Rhys Priestland has been outstanding with his ability to go forward and he has been smart around the park.
ZB: Warburton should have had a yellow card at most. He tackled Vincent Clerc properly, but let him go. It was worth a smack on the hand. Warren Gatland has built an ethos in a young, well-balanced side. They should have made the final but failed to.
On Friday's play-off between Wales and Australia
MB: Both sides will want to win for the fans back home. I hope there will be changes in our backline. Put Berrick Barnes at 10 and bring on Quade Cooper at the end. Will it be a game of structure or will the ball be chucked about? I remember Argentina in the last play-off threw the ball around and it was an excellent game. Cooper has been targeted, no doubt. It is sad people have jumped on board like that and it may have gone too far. Australia have not attacked as we expected. They have defended well but you have to score tries to win games. The make-up of the backline in the semi-final may have needed a big call after 25 minutes because Cooper sent the kick-off out on the full and then missed a tackle and a high ball. He said the crowd did not affect him, but when you are out there it does.
The bottom line is that we have not had momentum at forward. It all starts up front and if you cannot get the ball from the lineout and scrum it makes it difficult to play, no matter how good your backs are. It was an issue for us in 2007 and it still is. We have to get some pride in our scrummaging.
WC: England were shocking in the play-off game in 1995. It was the first time we had lost to France for eight or nine games. I was surprised we lost by so little because we were absolutely shocking. What does third mean? You don't care. You have missed out on the chance to win the World Cup and maybe down the line it will end up as the final of a plate competition. If Samoa were playing Canada or whoever that would be a great spectacle and people would want to go along and watch it. Third and fourth place? No.
ZB: Warren Gatland has done a fine job and he will want Wales to finish third. There will be a bit of passion in the game. It is an important one for them. I am sure Warren will want to tick the New Zealand coaching box at some point, but Wales are his focus now.
SQ: I think Friday will be a fantastic game of rugby. Australia will make a few changes but they will come out and have a go. It is a game no one really wants to play in or watch and it should not be in the calendar. We should be watching a plate final that has something on it, like being the eighth seed in the next World Cup.
I hope it will be Barbarian style rugby. I watched the play-off in 1987 and when Paul Thorburn had the kick to win the game I was so nervous I was outside the door. It was nerve-wracking and I wanted Wales to win with my dad coaching them. The players will want to give everyone who is supporting them - and the number of Kiwis dressed in red and white on Saturday night at the ground was immense - a big thank you.
On the final
ZB: The door is ajar for New Zealand at the moment. We have to shut it on Sunday and go about our business, keep our routine and focus on what we have done. There is pressure but this is an experienced All Blacks side.
The scary thing about France is that they have not really produced anything yet. It is twitchy-twitchy time. We have beaten them in a final but lost to them twice in the semis. Do I think this French team is comparable to ones in years gone by? No. I suspect the French will look at the third quarter between New Zealand and Australia on Sunday and think they have an in.
WC: New Zealand have been impressive. The best player in the world [Dan Carter] is injured and his first equal [Richie McCaw] is soldiering on, yet still they win and deal with the most unbelievable pressure in a country. They have been awesome. France have not really fired but they did not have a great side when they beat New Zealand in 1999. They played really well in the first 10 minutes against the All Blacks in the pool stage last month and then stopped. It was as if they said they had done enough; they knew they could cope with the All Blacks.
